Comments on: Best and Worst Stud Fees Values for 2007 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/ Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:21:51 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: charlie orrison http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-2775 charlie orrison Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:02:55 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-2775 no mention of indian charlie at $50,000? hes produced back to back eclipse champs and his colts certainly hold thier own in thee sale ring as well. He may have fallen off the 2 yr old leading sire list, but has long been known as a precocious 2yr old producer. Another underappreciated stallion is lost soldier at buck pond for $7500....lots of solid runners out of him. Tiznow would be another coming in to his own this year....wouldnt be a bit suprised to see him jump in price next yr though.....he also is a comes from a sound durable seattle slew line. My 2 cents for what its worth. Good blog here! no mention of indian charlie at $50,000? hes produced back to back eclipse champs and his colts certainly hold thier own in thee sale ring as well. He may have fallen off the 2 yr old leading sire list, but has long been known as a precocious 2yr old producer. Another underappreciated stallion is lost soldier at buck pond for $7500….lots of solid runners out of him. Tiznow would be another coming in to his own this year….wouldnt be a bit suprised to see him jump in price next yr though…..he also is a comes from a sound durable seattle slew line. My 2 cents for what its worth. Good blog here!

]]> By: Warstone http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-100 Warstone Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:52:33 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-100 Rahy is a wonderful stallion. He is actually one of my favorites. I cannot agree with you more on his achievements: he has a 2.45 AEI and 9% stakes winners from foals. I think he is one of the best stallions out there and if you doubt me, all you have to do is go to my website to 'current runners' to see that I actually own one by him (a colt by the way). So I actually put my money where my mouth is when I say this.<br/><br/>Now as for the reason why Rahy is not mentioned is that this particular post was intended to identify sires that offer value for breeders. Rahy has a stud fee of $60,000 for this year; however, his yearling average was only $90,000 a very poor median to stud fee ratio (especially considering that his stud fee when those yearlings were conceived was above $80,000). So I would not recommend Rahy to any commercial breeder at this price, he offers very little value on the commercial end. If you breed to race, then $60,000 is a bargain, I think he is a much better sire than many at this price range. <br/><br/>But unfortunately for the commercial breeders, the best value he offers is for buyers of his stock at yearling sales. It is regretable that the market punishes older proven sires such as Rahy, in this way. Rahy is a wonderful stallion. He is actually one of my favorites. I cannot agree with you more on his achievements: he has a 2.45 AEI and 9% stakes winners from foals. I think he is one of the best stallions out there and if you doubt me, all you have to do is go to my website to ‘current runners’ to see that I actually own one by him (a colt by the way). So I actually put my money where my mouth is when I say this.

Now as for the reason why Rahy is not mentioned is that this particular post was intended to identify sires that offer value for breeders. Rahy has a stud fee of $60,000 for this year; however, his yearling average was only $90,000 a very poor median to stud fee ratio (especially considering that his stud fee when those yearlings were conceived was above $80,000). So I would not recommend Rahy to any commercial breeder at this price, he offers very little value on the commercial end. If you breed to race, then $60,000 is a bargain, I think he is a much better sire than many at this price range.

But unfortunately for the commercial breeders, the best value he offers is for buyers of his stock at yearling sales. It is regretable that the market punishes older proven sires such as Rahy, in this way.

]]> By: Anonymous http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-99 Anonymous Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:18:24 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-99 How can Rahy NOT be mentioned? Year after year, this little guy does nothing but sire top class, hard knocking horses. And for those who consider him a "filly sire," I can't think of many stallions around that have sired a colt as good as Fantastic Light. How can Rahy NOT be mentioned? Year after year, this little guy does nothing but sire top class, hard knocking horses. And for those who consider him a “filly sire,” I can’t think of many stallions around that have sired a colt as good as Fantastic Light.

]]> By: Handride http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-98 Handride Wed, 14 Feb 2007 18:52:24 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-98 you have about 4 posts here in your comments section! Thanks for updating the standings. You really should cut and paste these comments onto a new post, I wouldn't have read them had I not been looking. The CI I think is a very long discussion as many people aren't aware exactly what it is or calculated. Keep up the good work.<br/>thanks<br/>patrick you have about 4 posts here in your comments section! Thanks for updating the standings. You really should cut and paste these comments onto a new post, I wouldn’t have read them had I not been looking. The CI I think is a very long discussion as many people aren’t aware exactly what it is or calculated. Keep up the good work.
thanks
patrick

]]> By: Warstone http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-97 Warstone Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:49:35 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-97 I think Cozzene is very undervalued by the market, and every year the average price and median price for his yearlings sold at auction drops a little. It may be that as he is getting older, the quality of mares bred to him is declining a little or the fact that there are fewer foals per crop out there promoting older stallions like him. Whatever the reason, the reality is that the market has a strong bias against him and other older stallions (like Rahy or Theatrical which I will put in this category of older but still fantastic buys). But regardless of the market perception he continues to offer great value to breeders and buyers.<br /><br />I think he is a better buy for those that are breeding to race than for those that are breeding to sell at this time because of the expected downturn in average price in the next years. However, the current stud fee decline to $35,000 makes him very attractive even for the commercial breeder.<br /><br />Last year he offered 21 yearlings for sale from a crop of only 36 yearlings, 11 sold for a $72,091 average and a $55,000 median. Compare that to 2005 where out of a crop of 52 he offered 24 for sale and 19 sold for an average of $87,395 and a median of $65,000. This year's yearling crop consists of only 32 individuals.<br /><br />Because of these trends I believe that Cozzene is and will continue to be one of the most undervalued sires at the yearling sales. Consider that his runner's average earnings per starter are a whopping $110,495 and that he has a 2.42 AEI from a CI of only 1.74: That is an incredible accomplishment! For $55,000 median? You can bet that I will be looking at all the Cozzenes at the sales!! I think Cozzene is very undervalued by the market, and every year the average price and median price for his yearlings sold at auction drops a little. It may be that as he is getting older, the quality of mares bred to him is declining a little or the fact that there are fewer foals per crop out there promoting older stallions like him. Whatever the reason, the reality is that the market has a strong bias against him and other older stallions (like Rahy or Theatrical which I will put in this category of older but still fantastic buys). But regardless of the market perception he continues to offer great value to breeders and buyers.

I think he is a better buy for those that are breeding to race than for those that are breeding to sell at this time because of the expected downturn in average price in the next years. However, the current stud fee decline to $35,000 makes him very attractive even for the commercial breeder.

Last year he offered 21 yearlings for sale from a crop of only 36 yearlings, 11 sold for a $72,091 average and a $55,000 median. Compare that to 2005 where out of a crop of 52 he offered 24 for sale and 19 sold for an average of $87,395 and a median of $65,000. This year’s yearling crop consists of only 32 individuals.

Because of these trends I believe that Cozzene is and will continue to be one of the most undervalued sires at the yearling sales. Consider that his runner’s average earnings per starter are a whopping $110,495 and that he has a 2.42 AEI from a CI of only 1.74: That is an incredible accomplishment! For $55,000 median? You can bet that I will be looking at all the Cozzenes at the sales!!

]]> By: Anonymous http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-96 Anonymous Thu, 18 Jan 2007 20:41:05 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-96 Your blog is very informative and I enjoy your opinions. I couldn't agree more with your opinion of Cozzene as a tremendous racehorse stallion. He continues to have a strong fertility ratio. What is your opinion of how his offspring are regarded commercially? I know his horses seem to run better at age 3 and older. Are his yearlings well represented at the auctions? Your blog is very informative and I enjoy your opinions. I couldn’t agree more with your opinion of Cozzene as a tremendous racehorse stallion. He continues to have a strong fertility ratio. What is your opinion of how his offspring are regarded commercially? I know his horses seem to run better at age 3 and older. Are his yearlings well represented at the auctions?

]]> By: Warstone http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-95 Warstone Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:49:22 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-95 From time to time TBH Market Watch will report the numbers and I am sure that there are other services that will also have them. But one of the best places to go to for the information may be the farm that stands the stallion, they will have all the necessary information you need and are usually happy to provide it. From time to time TBH Market Watch will report the numbers and I am sure that there are other services that will also have them. But one of the best places to go to for the information may be the farm that stands the stallion, they will have all the necessary information you need and are usually happy to provide it.

]]> By: dsc http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-94 dsc Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:19:46 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-94 Thank you - those numbers are very useful and helps me better understand your prior post. For the life of me though I can not figure out where you got the CI and CPI for Dance with Ravens (checked Thoroghbred Times, Bloodstock, breeder web site...) How would I look that up myself in the future? Thank you – those numbers are very useful and helps me better understand your prior post. For the life of me though I can not figure out where you got the CI and CPI for Dance with Ravens (checked Thoroghbred Times, Bloodstock, breeder web site…) How would I look that up myself in the future?

]]> By: Warstone http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-93 Warstone Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:48:26 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-93 Here are some numbers that may be useful to you regarding Dance with Ravens ($7,500 AP Indy – Dance Smartly by Danzig). He had 126 mares bred to him in 2006. His CI was 1.53 and his CPI was 1.72 (15 of the mares bred to him were unraced). While these numbers are not spectacular, they are very solid for the price range and they do signal a good amount of support especially the fact that a large number of mares are going to him. The big question for you, if you breed to sell, is wheather his two year olds will perform well enough by the time your yearling reaches the sale ring to help you or will he bred a later maturing type so that his first crop will not shine until they are older? Here are some numbers that may be useful to you regarding Dance with Ravens ($7,500 AP Indy – Dance Smartly by Danzig). He had 126 mares bred to him in 2006. His CI was 1.53 and his CPI was 1.72 (15 of the mares bred to him were unraced). While these numbers are not spectacular, they are very solid for the price range and they do signal a good amount of support especially the fact that a large number of mares are going to him. The big question for you, if you breed to sell, is wheather his two year olds will perform well enough by the time your yearling reaches the sale ring to help you or will he bred a later maturing type so that his first crop will not shine until they are older?

]]> By: dave http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/comment-page-1/#comment-92 dave Thu, 18 Jan 2007 02:34:45 +0000 http://warstonefarm.com/www/best-and-worst-stud-fees-values-for-2007/#comment-92 Thank you for your reply. It is often helpful for me to use examples to better understand. Earlier I asked about Dance with Ravens as a Stud, who will be entering his second year at Stud. While I like him for many of the reasons you stated, I am trying to figure out how strong the initial mares were in the first year of this regional stallion in MD. I am a beliver that without quality mares it does not matter how talented the stallion, the odds are foals will not sell well. Using CI and CPI as you reference, how would I figure this out? Thank you for your reply. It is often helpful for me to use examples to better understand. Earlier I asked about Dance with Ravens as a Stud, who will be entering his second year at Stud. While I like him for many of the reasons you stated, I am trying to figure out how strong the initial mares were in the first year of this regional stallion in MD. I am a beliver that without quality mares it does not matter how talented the stallion, the odds are foals will not sell well. Using CI and CPI as you reference, how would I figure this out?

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